tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11017234.post6929242812990246267..comments2023-11-16T07:12:40.867-05:00Comments on Dissoi Blogoi: A Greek Idol, part IUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11017234.post-69211123361195532212008-03-05T06:33:00.000-05:002008-03-05T06:33:00.000-05:00Adam, Consider these interesting sentences from On...Adam, <BR/><BR/>Consider these interesting sentences from <I>On Virtues and Vices</I>. On the usual understanding of <I>engkrateia</I>, one would suppose that a peripatetic would never make such a mistake as to consider <I>engkrateia</I> a virtue alongside <I>swphronsune</I>. And yet this is not entirely inconsistent, I think, with Nic Eth's idea of <I>to epithumetikon</I> as a faculty which (therefore) can presumably be incited or inflamed without fault (at which point virtue would consist in simply resisting it).<BR/><BR/>That moderation is a compound of (i) not feeling some desires, and (ii) resisting those which we nevertheless feel is, I think, reflected in our finding it not inapt to use 'self-control' for <I>swphrosune</I> and 'out of control' for <I>akolasia</I>.<BR/><BR/>1250a8ff<BR/>σωφροσύνη δ' ἐστὶν ἀρετὴ τοῦ ἐπιθυμητικοῦ, καθ' ἣν ἀνόρεκτοι γίνονται περὶ τὰς ἀπολαύσεις τῶν φαύλων ἡδονῶν. ἐγκράτεια δ' ἐστὶν ἀρετὴ τοῦ ἐπιθυμητικοῦ, καθ' ἣν κατέχουσι τῷ λογισμῷ τὴν ἐπιθυμίαν ὁρμῶσαν ἐπὶ τὰς φαύλας ἡδονάς. <BR/><BR/>"Moderation is a virtue of the faculty of sense-desire, by which we tend not to want any of the enjoyment that comes from bad pleasures. Self-control is a virtue of the faculty of sense-desire, by which through rational reflection we keep in check sense-desire when it urges us on toward bad pleasures."Michael Pakalukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00233648836210188722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11017234.post-90423513341099899982008-03-04T16:08:00.000-05:002008-03-04T16:08:00.000-05:00Yes, that's quite right. If he's making claims abo...Yes, that's quite right. If he's making claims about how the term is applied, then he <I>is</I> talking about the meaning of the term. And it's clear that "unruly" won't work all the time. Sexual unruliness? That sounds silly.<BR/><BR/>AAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11017234.post-13440040758177424222008-03-04T16:01:00.000-05:002008-03-04T16:01:00.000-05:00Adam,You may be right, and I like 'unruliness'.It ...Adam,<BR/><BR/>You may be right, and I like 'unruliness'.<BR/><BR/>It seems in English we have no word that covers excess in eating and in sex. Maybe 'out of control'? Someone might say that such a term assimilates virtue to <I>engkrateia</I>, yet it seems to me that the present passage requires a subtler understanding of <I>engkrateia</I> than usually given.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure about your distinction in the last paragraph. Aristotle develops his account of <I>akolasia</I> almost solely by considering the grounds on which people would, and would not, apply the terms <I>akolastos</I> and <I>swphrwn</I> to someone. That looks like, I suppose, an <I>analysis</I> of the term or concept, as others make use of it. On the other hand I'm pretty sure he didn't think most people understand 'what's going on' when they want the pleasures of food or sex. <BR/><BR/>MMichael Pakalukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00233648836210188722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11017234.post-9810409177827426542008-03-04T13:38:00.000-05:002008-03-04T13:38:00.000-05:00Adam says:I liked “unruly” and “unruliness” becaus...Adam says:<BR/><BR/>I liked “unruly” and “unruliness” because (i) “unruly” is not bad (?) for the adult version of <I>akolastos</I>, and (ii) etymologically it maps quite well to <I>akolastos</I> because it implies “unruled” i.e., “not ruled over” or “not controlled” which is <I>fairly</I> close to “not kekolasmenon”. The etymological connections aren’t perfect, but I don’t think we sould aim for that here. It would be an amazing fluke if connections like that mapped exactly from one language to another. If they come out nicely, that’s a bonus, but secondary. (Would we try to expose, in English, Aristotle’s etymological claims about <I>asotia</I> and <I>arete</I> and <I>sophrosune</I>?) Also (iii) Aristotle himself switches from using the verb <I>kolazein</I> to using <I>archein</I>, saying that adult desires, and kids, have to be “<I>under the ruling bit</I>”, which he treats as an elaboration of being <I>kekolasmenon</I>. Also (iv) it so happens that we <I>do</I> speak — that is, naturally speak — of “unruly kids”, just as Aristotle reports that Greeks naturally talk of children being <I>akolastoi</I>. Try Googling “unruly kids”. “Unrestrained children” by contrast, seems only to refer to <I>children not wearing seat-belts</I> (!)<BR/><BR/>Maybe the weakest claim here is that “unruly” is OK for adult <I>akolastos</I>. That may well be wrong. OK, but then what exactly <I>do</I> we take adult <I>akolasia</I> to refer to? It’s important to note that Aristotle’s detailed claims about <I>akolasia</I> don’t have to be taken as telling us the meaning of the term. He can also be <I>analyzing</I> the term — and other Greeks might want to disagree with his analysis. We shouldn’t say that <I>akolasia</I> simply <I>means</I> “having desires for specifically physical pleasures that are excessive and uncontrolled.” That might just be what Aristotle thinks <I>is going on</I> in people who are <I>akolastoi</I> — i.e., as the case may be, in people who are unruly. We need to look to wider and more general usues of the time to get the basic meaning. What do you think Euripides and Herodotus mean when they speak of the <I>akolastos ochlos</I>? What is the best way of saying that in English?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com